Trying to lay this disagreement out plainly:
According to you, the inner alignment problem should apply to well-defined optimization problems, meaning optimization problems which have been given all the pieces needed to score domain items. Within this frame, the only reasonable definition is "inner" = issues of imperfect search, "outer" = issues of objective (which can include the prior, the utility function, etc).
According to me/Evan, the inner alignment problem should apply to optimization under uncertainty, which is a notion of optimization where you don't have enough information to really score domain items. In this frame, it seems reasonable to point to the way the algorithm tries to fill in the missing information as the location of "inner optimizers". This "way the algorithm tries to fill in missing info" has to include properties of the search, so we roll search+prior together into "inductive bias".
I take your argument to have been:
Your crux is, can we factor 'uncertainty' from 'value pointer' such that the notion of 'value pointer' contains all (and only) the outer alignment issues? In that case, you could come around to optimization-under-uncertainty as a frame.
I take my argument to have been:
My crux would be, does a solution to outer alignment (in the intuitive sense) really imply a solution to exorcising mesa-optimizers from a prior (in the sense relevant to eliminating them from perfect search)?
It might also help if I point out that well-defined-optimization vs optimization-under-uncertainty is my current version of the selection/control distinction.
In any case, I'm pretty won over by the uncertainty/pointer distinction. I think it's similar to the capabilities/payload distinction Jessica has mentioned. This combines search and uncertainty (and any other generically useful optimization strategies) into the capabilities.
But I would clarify that, wrt the 'capabilities' element, there seem to be mundane capabilities questions and then inner optimizer questions. IE, we might broadly define "inner alignment" to include all questions about how to point 'capabilities' at 'payload', but if so, I currently think there's a special subset of 'inner alignment' which is about mesa-optimizers. (Evan uses the term 'inner alignment' for mesa-optimizer problems, and 'objective-robustness' for broader issues of reliably pursuing goals, but he also uses the term 'capability robustness', suggesting he's not lumping all of the capabilities questions under 'objective robustness'.)
Most of the work on inner alignment so far has been informal or semi-formal (with the notable exception of a little work on minimal circuits). I feel this has resulted in some misconceptions about the problem. I want to write up a large document clearly defining the formal problem and detailing some formal directions for research. Here, I outline my intentions, inviting the reader to provide feedback and point me to any formal work or areas of potential formal work which should be covered in such a document. (Feel free to do that last one without reading further, if you are time-constrained!)
The State of the Subfield
Risks from Learned Optimization (henceforth, RLO) offered semi-formal definitions of important terms, and provided an excellent introduction to the area for a lot of people (and clarified my own thoughts and the thoughts of others who I know, even though we had already been thinking about these things).
However, RLO spent a lot of time on highly informal arguments (analogies to evolution, developmental stories about deception) which help establish the plausibility of the problem. While I feel these were important motivation, in hindsight I think they've caused some misunderstandings. My interactions with some other researchers has caused me to worry that some people confuse the positive arguments for plausibility with the core problem, and in some cases have exactly the wrong impression about the core problem. This results in mistakenly trying to block the plausibility arguments, which I see as merely illustrative, rather than attacking the core problem.
By no means do I intend to malign experimental or informal/semiformal work. Rather, by focusing on formal theoretical work, I aim to fill a hole I perceive in the field. I am very appreciative of much of the informal/semiformal work that has been done so far, and continue to think that kind of work is necessary for the crystallization of good concepts.
Focusing on the Core Problem
In order to establish safety properties, we would like robust safety arguments ("X will not happen" / "X has an extremely low probability of happening"). For example, arguments that probability of catastrophe will be very low, or arguments that probability of intentional catastrophe will be very low (ie, intent-alignment), or something along those lines.
For me, the core inner alignment problem is the absence of such an argument in a case where we might naively expect it. We don't know how to rule out the presence of (misaligned) mesa-optimizers.
Instead, I see many people focusing on blocking the plausibility arguments in RLO. This strikes me as the wrong direction. To me, these arguments are merely illustrative.
It seems like some people have gotten the impression that when the assumptions of the plausibility arguments in RLO aren't met, we should not expect an inner alignment problem to arise. Not only does this attitude misunderstand what we want (ie, a strong argument that we won't encounter a problem) -- I further think it's actually wrong (because when we look at almost any case, we see cause for concern).
Examples:
The Developmental Story
One recent conversation involved a line of research based on the developmental story, where a mesa-optimizer develops a pseudo-aligned objective early in training (an objective with a strong statistical correlation to the true objective in the training data), but as it learns more about the world, it improves its training score by becoming deceptive rather than by fixing the pseudo-aligned objective. The research proposal being presented to me involved shaping the early pseudo-aligned objective in very coarse-grained ways, which might ensure (for example) a high preference for cooperative behavior, or a low tolerance for risk (catastrophic actions might be expected to be particularly risky), etc.
This line of research seemed promising to the person I was talking to, because they supposed that while it might be very difficult to precisely control the objectives of a mesa-optimizer or rule out mesa-optimizers entirely, it might be easy to coarsely shape the mesa-objectives.
I responded that for me, the whole point of the inner alignment problem was the conspicuous absence of a formal connection between the outer objective and the mesa-objective, such that we could make little to no guarantees based on any such connection. I proceeded to offer a plausibility argument for a total disconnect between the two, such that even these coarse-grained adjustments would fail.
(Possibly it was a mistake to offer a plausibility argument, because the rest of the discussion focused on this plausibility argument, again distracting from the core problem!)
The Evolutionary Story
Another recent conversation involved an over-emphasis on the evolutionary analogy. This person believed the inner optimizer problem would apply when systems were incentivised to be goal-oriented, as with animals selected for reproductive fitness, or policy networks trained to pursue reward. However, they did not believe it would apply to networks which are simply trained to predict, such as GPT.
Again, this strikes me as ignoring the fundamental problem, that we have little to no idea when mesa-optimizers can arise, that we lack formal tools for the analysis of such questions, and that what formal tools we might have thought to apply, have failed to yield any such results.
Bounding the Problem
My third and final example: in one conversation, someone made a claim which I see as "exactly wrong": that we can somehow lower-bound the complexity of a mesa-optimizer in comparison to a non-agentic hypothesis (perhaps because a mesa-optimizer has to have a world-model plus other stuff, where a regular hypothesis just needs to directly model the world). This idea was used to argue against some concern of mine.
The problem is precisely that we know of no way of doing that! If we did, there would not be any inner alignment problem! We could just focus on the simplest hypothesis that fit the data, which is pretty much what you want to do anyway!
I want to return to that idea. But first, we have to clarify some definitions.
The Formal Problem
I currently see three areas of concern:
Vanessa terms #1 Cartesian daemons because they obey the intended input/output protocol of the whole system, and #3 non-Cartesian daemons because they violate the protocol. I'm not sure whether/where #2 falls on Vanessa's classification.
For this short write-up I'll focus on #1, although clearly #2 and #3 are also important areas of study.
My semi-formal description of the problem is going to be very close to the explain-like-i'm-12 version:
Essentially what we want to do is block or weaken this conclusion (concluding that there is no, or only a very small, chance).
(The "(malign)" in parentheses should be removed in approaches which are trying to avoid mesa-optimization entirely, and included in approaches which are only trying to block bad actors. I'll sometimes use the term "malign hypothesis" to indicate hypotheses which produce catastrophic output, regardless of whether they contain a mesa-optimizer in any formal sense.)
Now, to make this into a formal problem, we have to define "mesa-optimizer".
Defining Mesa-Optimization
RLO offered a semi-formal definition of mesa-optimizers, as objects in a search space which themselves conduct an internal search. Whether or not you agree with this definition, it's too vague for formal purposes: how would we define "internal search"?
So, for the purpose of the formal problem, it's necessary to pick an operational definition.
Fortunately, it's possible to select operational definitions which have strong connections to safety concerns. In particular, I will call an operationalization tight if it includes more than necessary, so that we can be sure we're ruling out the undesired behavior when we rule out its operationalization. ("Tight" is supposed to sound like the opposite of "leaky" as in "leaky abstraction".)
As with any research, the choice of operational definitions is going to depend on the specific approach of the researcher, norms of the field, etc. Here are some options that occur to me:
Obviously, this is not exhaustive by any means. Coming up with productive operational definitions is an important part of attacking the formal inner alignment problem.
The goal is then to provide some kind of strong argument which avoids the operationalized problem.
Why is this a problem?
Why can't we address the inner alignment problem in the same way that we usually address problems of induction?
The most obvious way to avoid mesa-optimizers is to rule them out of the search space or the results of search. Earlier, I said:
I was referring to the idea that the first thing one tries when hearing about the inner alignment problem is probably this kind of complexity-bound approach, which leads me to think of "the whole problem" as the fact that these approaches don't seem to work.
So, let's look at these approaches in more detail.
The hope is that we can be confident that mesa-optimizers will be more complex in comparison with benign outputs, so that we can avert mesa-optimization by using machine learning techniques which heavily bias toward less complex models. (This is "the first thing one tries" because it employs standard ideas from machine learning.)
The main theoretical choice one has is, what notion of "complexity"? I will look at three approaches:
Description Complexity
The idea here would have to be that mesa-optimizers have to have a larger description length than benign hypotheses.
Why you might think this idea would work:
Why this idea doesn't seem to work:
Pure Computational Complexity
Alright, if description complexity can't rule out mesa-optimizers, maybe computational complexity can? I'm going to formalize "fast programs" as minimal circuits, where "circuit size" is understood as the number of logic gates.
Why you might think this would work:
Why it doesn't seem to work:
It might seem like we're just not cutting off enough processing power -- the minimal-circuits formalism cuts off mesa-optimization which requires superexponential thinking time, but not sub-exponential. Let's call this the "computational ceiling" of the formalism. Shouldn't we just pick a formalism with a lower computational ceiling?
Maybe! Let's look at a formalism which gives us a knob to adjust, so that we can choose to penalize time more/less harshly.
Mixing Time and Description Complexity
The speed prior is like Solomonoff induction, except that it penalizes computation time. Specifically, taking twice as long is like 1 more bit of description length. Combining time and description complexity in this way is called Levin complexity.
For Levin complexity, time is penalized logarithmically (in comparison to description length). This suggests that we will get an exponential computational ceiling again: if computing n bits costs O(2n) time, we're around the break-even point (it might be worth computing the bits, or it might be better to memorize them). So super-exponential calculations won't be worth it, and sub-exponential calculations will, just like we saw with minimal circuits.
However, it's easy to tweak the time/description trade-off. Let's define Levinf complexity as 2l+f(t), where l is description length and t is execution time (the choice of f=log2 gives us regular Levin complexity). (I am not sure if Levinf complexity has a more standard name in the literature.) This gives us a computational ceiling of f−1.
Why this might work:
Why this might not work:
Elaborating on that last point: I'm assuming that you are asking for a computation that runs "sufficiently long" anyway. The speed prior does have a heavy bias for computations which cut off quickly. However, if we're (say) predicting the weather, we probably want to require that the calculation keeps going on for a while into the future, rather than cutting off. If we're training an AI traffic control system, we'd certainly require that it doesn't just cut off after a few days. The idea, then, is that the treacherous computation C can be spaced out through the time the AI traffic control system is required to remain on-line.
Taking everything together, I don't think we have a strong basis (yet!) for thinking penalizing runtime makes the situation any better. Some have even argued that it makes the situation worse, because time constraints provide an extra incentive for complex value-driven computations (in order to manage time effectively) as opposed to simple causal hypotheses (such as raw physics). I don't think we have enough information to judge one way or the other.
A Note on the Consensus Algorithm
The eventual write-up, which this is a mere prospectus for, would aim to cover as broad a variety of approaches as possible, and give our current best assessment of the viability of each (ie, report why it might work and why it might not work).
I can't cover everything I'd want to cover in this prospectus, but one more approach sticks out as deserving of treatment. In February of this year, Michael Cohen posted Formal Solution to the Inner Alignment Problem. This used an algorithm which I had heard many others talk about in the context of inner alignment, but usually, with considerably less hope and optimism than Michael Cohen expresses. I'll call the algorithm the consensus algorithm. (I don't know of a better name for it; I've heard it called KWIK learning (Knows-What-It-Knows), but unfortunately KWIK is actually used for a learning setting, not the algorithm that's typically applied in that setting.)
The consensus algorithm works like this:
Note that I'm not nailing down all details, EG, how closely do we require models to agree? (Do we just require that they agree about which option is most probable? Do we require their probabilities to fall within the same small range?)
The consensus algorithm allows us to make some nice formal arguments. For example:
However, other drawbacks seem to spoil the appeal of this result.
Michael Cohen seems to think that restricting to imitation learning makes the realizability assumption realistic:
I disagree. It still doesn't seem realistic to suppose that competitors to the best hypothesis are never lucky. Even if we suppose that my behavior is entirely deterministic, the number of hypotheses you'd have to consider in order for one of them to be an exact copy of my brain would no doubt be huge! Let's conservatively call this 10100 (suggesting that I have at least 100 neurons, each of which has at least 10 meaningfully different configurations). This would suggest that the consensus algorithm needs googol times the processing power of the human brain to work.
Michael Cohen also says some other stuff about why the proposal doesn't have embedding problems, which I also disagree with. But let's set this aside and get back to listing other problems with the consensus algorithm.
The fourth point really seems like the deal-breaker. Malign mesa-optimizers could intelligently leverage this to communicate with the outside world, manipulate the training process, etc.
Conclusion
Has this been useful? Would an expanded and improved version of this be useful?
This is something where I could really use detailed peer-review-like feedback, since the final version of this thing would hopefully be a pretty canonical resource, with standardized terminology and so on.
A weakness of this as it currently stands is that I purport to offer the formal version of the inner optimization problem, but really, I just gesture at a cloud of possible formal versions. I think this is somewhat inevitable, but nonetheless, could probably be improved. What I'd like to have would be several specific formal definitions, together with several specific informal concepts, and strong stories connecting all of those things together.
I'd be glad to get any of the following types of feedback:
If you take nothing else away from this, I'm hoping you take away this one idea: the main point of the inner alignment problem (at least to me) is that we know hardly anything about the relationship between the outer optimizer and any mesa-optimizers. There are hardly any settings where we can rule mesa-optimizers out. And we can't strongly argue for any particular connection (good or bad) between outer objectives and inner.