I almost agree, but still ended up disagreeing with a lot of your bullet points. Since reading your list was useful, I figured it would be worthwhile to just make a parallel list. ✓ for agreement, × for disagreement (• for neutral).
Problem overview
✓ I think we're confused about what we really mean when we talk about human values.
× But our real problem is on the meta-level: we want to understand value learning so that we can build an AI that learns human values even without starting with a precise model waiting to be filled in.
_× We can trust AI to discover that structure for us even though we couldn't verify the result, because the point isn't getting the right answer, it's having a trustworthy process.
_ × We can't just write down the correct structure any more than we can just write down the correct content. We're trying to translate a vague human concept into precise instructions for an AI
✓ Agree with extensional definition of values, and relevance to decision-making.
• Research on the content of human values may be useful information about what humans consider to be human values. I think research on the structure of human values is in much the same boat - information, not the final say.
✓ Agree about Stuart's work being where you'd go to write down a precise set of preferences based on human preferences, and that the problems you mention are problems.
Solution overview
✓ Agree with assumptions.
• I think the basic model leaves out the fact that we're changing levels of description.
_ × Merely causing events (in the physical level of description) is not sufficient to say we're acting (in the agent level of description). We need some notion of "could have done something else," which is an abstraction about agents, not something fundamentally physical.
_ × Similar quibbles apply to the other parts - there is no physically special decision process, we can only find one by changing our level of description of the world to one where we posit such a structure.
_ × The point: Everything in the basic model is a statistical regularity we can observe over the behavior of a physical system. You need a bit more nuanced way to place preferences and meta-preferences.
_ • The simple patch is to just say that there's some level of description where the decision-generation process lives, and preferences live at a higher level of abstraction than that. Therefore preferences are emergent phenomena from the level of description the decision-generation process is on.
_ _ × But I think if one applies this patch, then it's a big mistake to use loaded words like "values" to describe the inputs (all inputs?) to the decision-generation process, which are, after all, at a level of description below the level where we can talk about preferences. I think this conflicts with the extensive definitions from earlier.
× If we recognize that we're talking about different levels of description, then preferences are not either causally after or causally before decisions-on-the-basic-model-level-of-abstraction. They're regular patterns that we can use to model decisions at a slightly higher level of abstraction.
_ • How to describe self-aware agents at a low level of abstraction then? Well, time to put on our GEB hats. The low level of abstraction just has to include a computation of the model we would use on the higher level of abstraction.
✓ Despite all these disagreements, I think you've made a pretty good case that the human brain plausibly computes a single currency (valence) that it uses to rate both most decisions and most predictions.
_ × But I still don't agree that this makes valence human values. I mean values in the sense of "the cluster we sometimes also point at with words like value, preference, affinity, taste, aesthetic, intention, and axiology." So I don't think we're left with a neuroscience problem, I still think what we want the AI to learn is on that higher level of abstraction where preferences live.
Thanks for your detailed response. Before I dive in, I'll just mention I added a bullet point about Goodhart because somehow when I wrote this up initially I forgot to include it.
× But our real problem is on the meta-level: we want to understand value learning so that we can build an AI that learns human values even without starting with a precise model waiting to be filled in.
_× We can trust AI to discover that structure for us even though we couldn't verify the result, because the point isn't getting the right answer, it's h... (read more)
On Friday I attended the 2020 Foresight AGI Strategy Meeting. Eventually a report will come out summarizing some of what was talked about, but for now I want to focus on what I talked about in my session on deconfusing human values. For that session I wrote up some notes summarizing what I've been working on and thinking about. None of it is new, but it is newly condensed in one place and in convenient list form, and it provides a decent summary of the current state of my research agenda for building beneficial superintelligent AI; a version 1 of my agenda, if you will. Thus, I hope this will be helpful in making it a bit clearer what it is I'm working on, why I'm working on it, and what direction my thinking is moving in. As always, if you're interesting in collaborating on things, whether that be discussing ideas or something more, please reach out.
Problem overview
Solution overview
Discussion
Acknowledgements
Thanks to Dan Elton, De Kai, Sai Joseph, and several other anonymous participants of the session for their attention, comments, questions, and insights.