Matthew "Vaniver" Graves


Against GDP as a metric for timelines and takeoff speeds

none capable of accelerating world GWP growth.

Or, at least, accelerating world GWP growth faster than they're already doing. (It's not like the various powers with nukes and bioweapons programs are not also trying to make the future richer than the present.)

Selection vs Control

In my wayward youthformal education, I studied numerical optimization, controls systems, the science of decision-making, and related things, and so some part of me was always irked by the focus on utility functions and issues with them; take this early comment of mine and the resulting thread as an example. So I was very pleased to see a post that touches on the difference between the approaches and the resulting intuitions bringing it more into the thinking of the AIAF.

That said, I also think I've become more confused about what sorts of inferences we can draw from internal structure to external behavior, when there are Church-Turing-like reasons to think that a robot built with mental strategy X can emulate a robot built with mental strategy Y, and both psychology and practical machine learning systems look like complicated pyramids built out of simple nonlinearities that can approximate general functions (but with different simplicity priors, and thus efficiencies). This sort of distinction doesn't seem particularly useful to me from the perspective of constraining our expectations, while it does seem useful for expanding them. [That is, the range of future possibilities seems broader than one would expect if they only thought in terms of selection, or only thought in terms of control.]

Confucianism in AI Alignment

Even if BigCo senior management were virtuous and benevolent, and their workers were loyal and did not game the rules, the poor rules would still cause problems.

If BigCo senior management were virtuous and benevolent, would they have poor rules?

That is to say, when I put my Confucian hat on, the whole system of selecting managers based on a proxy measure that's gameable feels too Legalist. [The actual answer to my question is "getting rid of poor rules would be a low priority, because the poor rules wouldn't impede righteous conduct, but they still would try to get rid of them."]

Like, if I had to point at the difference between the two, the difference is where the put the locus of value. The Confucian ruler is primarily focused on making the state good, and surrounding himself with people who are primarily focused on making the state good. The Legalist ruler is primarily focused on surviving and thriving, and so tries to set up systems that cause people who are primarily focused on surviving and thriving to do the right thing. The Confucian imagines that you can have a large shared value; the Legalist imagines that you will necessarily have many disconnected and contradictory values.

The difference between hiring for regular companies and EA orgs seems relevant. Often, applicants for regular companies want the job, and standard practice is to attempt to trick the company into hiring them, regardless of qualification. Often, applicants for EA orgs only want the job if and only if they're the right person for the job; if I'm trying to prevent asteroids from hitting the Earth (or w/e) and someone else could do a better job of it than I could, I very much want to get out of their way and have them do it instead of me. As you mention in the post, this just means you get rid of the part of interviews where gaming is intentional, and significant difficulty remains. [Like, people will be honest about their weaknesses and try to be honest about their strengths, but accurately measuring those and fit with the existing team remains quite difficult.]

Now, where they're trying to put the locus of value doesn't mean their policy prescriptions are helpful. As I understand the Confucian focus on virtue in the leader, the main value is that it's really hard to have subordinates who are motivated by the common good if you yourself are selfish (both because they won't have your example and because the people who are motivated by the common good will find it difficult to be motivated by working for you).

But I find myself feeling some despair at the prospect of a purely Legalist approach to AI Alignment, because it feels like it is fighting against the AI at every step, instead of being able to recruit it to do some of the work for you, and without that last bit I'm not sure how you get extrapolation instead of interpolation. Like, you can trust the Confucian to do the right thing in novel territory, insofar as you gave them the right underlying principles, and the Confucian is operating at a philosophical level where you can give them concepts like corrigibility (where they not only want to accept correction from you, but also want to preserve their ability to accept correction for you, and preserve their preservation of that ability, and so on) and the map-territory distinction (where they want their sensors to be honest, because in order to have lots of strawberries they need their strawberry-counter to be accurate instead of inaccurate). In Legalism, the hope is that the overseer can stay a step ahead of their subordinate; in Confucianism, the hope is that everyone can be their own overseer.

[Of course, defense in depth is useful; it's good to both have trust in the philosophical competence of the system and have lots of unit tests and restrictions in case you or it are confused.]

"Zero Sum" is a misnomer.

"Completely adversarial" also better captures the strange feature of zero-sum games where doing damage to your opponent, by the nature of it being zero-sum, necessarily means improving your satisfaction, which is a very narrow class of situations.

Draft report on AI timelines

We could then back out what a rational firm should be willing to invest.

This makes sense, altho I note that I expect the funding here to quite plausibly be 'irrational.' For example, some substantial fraction of Microsoft's value captured is going to global development in a way that seems unlikely to make sense from Microsoft's bottom line (because Microsoft enriched one of its owners, who then decided to deploy those riches for global development). If building TAI comes out of the 'altruism' or 'exploration' budget instead of the 'we expect this to pay back on schedule' budget, you could see more investment than that last category would justify.

Draft report on AI timelines

Part 1 page 15 talks about "spending on computation", and assumes spending saturates at 1% of the GDP of the largest country. This seems potentially odd to me; quite possibly the spending will be done by multinational corporations that view themselves as more "global" than "American" or "British" or whatever, and whose fortunes are more tied to the global economy than to the national economy. At most this gives you a factor of 2-3 doublings, but that's still 4-6 years on a 2-year doubling time.

Overall I'm not sure how much to believe this hypothesis; my mainline prediction is that corporations grow in power and rootlessness compared to nation-states, but it also seems likely that bits of the global economy will fracture / there will be a push to decentralization over centralization, where (say) Alphabet is more like "global excluding China, where Baidu is supreme" than it is "global." In that world, I think you still see approximately a 4x increase.

I also don't have a great sense how we should expect the 'ability to fund large projects' to compare between the governments of the past and the megacorps of the future; it seems quite plausible to me that Alphabet, without pressure to do welfare spending / fund the military / etc. could put a much larger fraction of its resources towards building TAI, but also presumably this means Alphabet has many fewer resources than the economy as a whole (because there still will be welfare spending and military funding and so on), and on net this probably works out to 1% of total gdp available for megaprojects.

Draft report on AI timelines

Thanks for sharing this draft! I'm going to try to make lots of different comments as I go along, rather than one huge comment.

[edit: page 10 calls this the "most important thread of further research"; the downside of writing as I go! For posterity's sake, I'll leave the comment.]

Pages 8 and 9 of part 1 talk about "effective horizon length", and make the claim:

Prima facie, I would expect that if we modify an ML problem so that effective horizon length is doubled (i.e, it takes twice as much data on average to reach a certain level of confidence about whether a perturbation to the model improved performance), the total training data required to train a model would also double. That is, I would expect training data requirements to scale linearly with effective horizon length as I have defined it.

I'm curious where 'linearly' came from; my sense is that "effective horizon length" is the equivalent of "optimal batch size", which I would have expected to be a weirder function of training data size than 'linear'. I don't have a great handle on the ML theory here, tho, and it might be substantially different between classification (where I can make batch-of-the-envelope estimates for this sort of thing) and RL (where it feels like it's a component of a much trickier system with harder-to-predict connections).

Quite possibly you talked with some ML experts and their sense was "linearly", and it makes sense to roll with that; it also seems quite possible that the thing to do here is have uncertainty over functional forms. That is, maybe the effective horizon scales linearly, or maybe it scales exponentially, or maybe it scales logarithmically, or inverse square root, or whatever. This would help double-check that the assumption of linearity isn't doing significant work, and if it is, point to a potentially promising avenue of theoretical ML research.

[As a broader point, I think this 'functional form uncertainty' is a big deal for my timelines estimates. A lot of people (rightfully!) dismissed the standard RL algorithms of 5 years ago for making AGI because of exponential training data requirements, but my sense is that further algorithmic improvement is mostly not "it's 10% faster" but "the base of the exponent is smaller" or "it's no longer exponential.", which might change whether or not it makes sense to dismiss it.]

Draft report on AI timelines

A simple, well-funded example is autonomous vehicles, which have spent considerably more than the training budget of AlphaStar, and are not there yet.

I am aware of other examples that do seem to be happening, but I'm not sure what the cutoff for 'massive' should be. For example, a 'call center bot' is moderately valuable (while not nearly as transformative as autonomous vehicles), and I believe there are many different companies attempting to do something like that, altho I don't know how their total ML expenditure compared to AlphaStar's. (The company I'm most familiar with in this space, Apprente, got acquired by McDonalds last year, who I presume is mostly interested in the ability to automate drive-thru orders.)

Another example that seems relevant to me is robotic hands (plus image classification) at sufficient level that warehouse pickers could be replaced by robots. 

Matt Botvinick on the spontaneous emergence of learning algorithms

in part since I didn't see much disagreement.

FWIW, I appreciated that your curation notice explicitly includes the desire for more commentary on the results, and that curating it seems to have been a contributor to there being more commentary. 

Matt Botvinick on the spontaneous emergence of learning algorithms

And the update should be fairly strong, given that this was (prior to my comment) the highest-upvoted post ever by AF karma.

Given karma inflation (as users gain more karma, their votes are worth more, but this doesn't propagate backwards to earlier votes they cast, and more people become AF voters than lose AF voter status), I think the karma differences between this post and these other 4 50+ karma posts [1 2 3 4] are basically noise. So I think the actual question is "is this post really in that tier?", to which "probably not" seems like a fair answer.

[I am thinking more about other points you've made, but it seemed worth writing a short reply on that point.]

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