66
o1 is a bad idea
15Caleb Biddulph
28Daniel Kokotajlo
4Noosphere89
4abramdemski
1Noosphere89
5abramdemski
1Noosphere89
2abramdemski
1Noosphere89
2abramdemski
2abramdemski
6David Matolcsi
3abramdemski
5SoerenMind
3abramdemski
4casens
4abramdemski
0namidaka
2abramdemski
New Comment
I believe o1-type models that are trained to effectively reason out loud may actually be better for AI safety than the alternative. However, this is conditional on their CoTs being faithful, even after optimization by RL. I believe that scenario is entirely possible, though not necessarily something that will happen by default. See the case for CoT unfaithfulness is overstated, my response with specific ideas for ensuring faithfulness, and Daniel Kokotajlo's doc along similar lines.
There seems to be quite a lot of low-hanging fruit here! I'm optimistic that highly-faithful CoTs can demonstrate enough momentum and short-term benefits to win out over uninterpretable neuralese, but it could easily go the other way. I think way more people should be working on methods to make CoT faithfulness robust to optimization (and how to minimize the safety tax of such methods).
It depends on what the alternative is. Here's a hierarchy:
1. Pretrained models with a bit of RLHF, and lots of scaffolding / bureaucracy / language model programming.
2. Pretrained models trained to do long chains of thought, but with some techniques in place (e.g. paraphraser, shoggoth-face, see some of my docs) that try to preserve faithfulness.
3. Pretrained models trained to do long chains of thought, but without those techniques, such that the CoT evolves into some sort of special hyperoptimized lingo
4. As above except with recurrent models / neuralese, i.e. no token bottleneck.
Alas, my prediction is that while 1>2>3>4 from a safety perspective, 1<2<3<4 from a capabilities perspective. I predict that the corporations will gleefully progress down this chain, rationalizing why things are fine and safe even as things get substantially less safe due to the changes.
Anyhow I totally agree on the urgency, tractability, and importance of faithful CoT research. I think that if we can do enough of that research fast enough, we'll be able to 'hold the line' at stage 2 for some time, possibly long enough to reach AGI.
The good news I'll share is that some of the most important insights about the safety/alignment work done on LLMs do transfer over pretty well to a lot of plausible AGI architectures, so while there's a little safety loss each time you go from 1 to 4, a lot of the theoretical ways to achieve alignment of these new systems remain intact, though the danger here is that the implementation difficulty pushes the safety tax too high, which is a pretty real concern.
Specifically, the insights I'm talking about are the controllability of AI with data, combined with their feedback on RL being way denser than human RL from evolution, meaning that instrumental convergence is affected significantly.
I don't get why you think this is true? EG, it seems like almost no insights about how to train faithful CoT would transfer to systems speaking pure neuralese. It seems to me that what little safety/alignment we have for LLMs is largely a byproduct of how language-focused they are (which gives us a weak sort of interpretability, a very useful safety resource which we are at risk of losing soon).
To put it a different way: human imitation is a relatively safe outer-optimization target, so we should be concerned to the extent that the industry is moving away from it. It sounds like you think safety lessons from the human-imitation regime generalize beyond the human-imitation regime. Maybe I agree that we can derive some abstract lessons like "RL with really dense feedback can avoid instrumental convergence", but we're moving away from the regime where such dense feedback is available, so I don't see what lessons transfer.
I don't get why you think this is true? EG, it seems like almost no insights about how to train faithful CoT would transfer to systems speaking pure neuralese. It seems to me that what little safety/alignment we have for LLMs is largely a byproduct of how language-focused they are (which gives us a weak sort of interpretability, a very useful safety resource which we are at risk of losing soon).
I think the crux is I think that the important parts of of LLMs re safety isn't their safety properties specifically, but rather the evidence they give to what alignment-relevant properties future AIs have (and note that I'm also using evidence from non-LLM sources like MCTS algorithm that was used for AlphaGo), and I also don't believe interpretability is why LLMs are mostly safe at all, but rather I think they're safe due to a combo of incapacity, not having extreme instrumental convergence, and the ability to steer them with data.\
Language is a simple example, but one that is generalizable pretty far.
It sounds like you think safety lessons from the human-imitation regime generalize beyond the human-imitation regime
Note that the primary points would apply to basically a whole lot of AI designs like MCTS for AlphaGo or a lot of other future architecture designs which don't imitate humans, barring ones which prevent you from steering it at all with data, or have very sparse feedback, which translates into weakly constraining instrumental convergence.
but we're moving away from the regime where such dense feedback is available, so I don't see what lessons transfer.
I think this is a crux, in that I don't buy o1 as progressing to a regime where we lose so much dense feedback that it's alignment relevant, because I think sparse-feedback RL will almost certainly be super-uncompetitive with every other AI architecture until well after AI automates all alignment research.
Also, AIs will still have instrumental convergence, it's just that their goals will be more local and more focused around the training task, so unless the training task rewards global power-seeking significantly, you won't get it.
I think the crux is I think that the important parts of of LLMs re safety isn't their safety properties specifically, but rather the evidence they give to what alignment-relevant properties future AIs have
[insert standard skepticism about these sorts of generalizations when generalizing to superintelligence]
But what lesson do you think you can generalize, and why do you think you can generalize that?
I think this is a crux, in that I don't buy o1 as progressing to a regime where we lose so much dense feedback that it's alignment relevant, because I think sparse-feedback RL will almost certainly be super-uncompetitive with every other AI architecture until well after AI automates all alignment research.
So, as a speculative example, further along in the direction of o1 you could have something like MCTS help train these things to solve very difficult math problems, with the sparse feedback being given for complete formal proofs.
Similarly, playing text-based video games, with the sparse feedback given for winning.
Similarly, training CoT to reason about code, with sparse feedback given for predictions of the code output.
Etc.
You think these sorts of things just won't work well enough to be relevant?
To answer the question:
So, as a speculative example, further along in the direction of o1 you could have something like MCTS help train these things to solve very difficult math problems, with the sparse feedback being given for complete formal proofs.
Similarly, playing text-based video games, with the sparse feedback given for winning.
Similarly, training CoT to reason about code, with sparse feedback given for predictions of the code output.
Etc.
You think these sorts of things just won't work well enough to be relevant?
Assuming the goals are done over say 1-10 year timescales, or maybe even just 1 year timescales with no reward-shaping/giving feedback for intermediate rewards at all, I do think that the system won't work well enough to be relevant, since it requires way too much time training, and plausibly way too much compute depending on how sparse the feedback actually is.
Other AIs relying on much denser feedback will already rule the world before that happens.
[insert standard skepticism about these sorts of generalizations when generalizing to superintelligence]
But what lesson do you think you can generalize, and why do you think you can generalize that?
Alright, I'll give 2 lessons that I do think generalize to superintelligence:
-
The data is a large factor in both it's capabilities and alignment, and alignment strategies should not ignore the data sources when trying to make predictions or trying to intervene on the AI for alignment purposes.
-
Instrumental convergence in a weak sense will likely exist, because having some ability to get more resources are useful for a lot of goals, but the extremely unconstrained versions of instrumental convergence often assumed where an AI will grab so much power as to effectively control humanity is unlikely to exist, given the constraints and feedback given to the AI.
For 1, the basic answer for why is because a lot of AI success in fields like Go and language modeling etc was jumpstarted by good data.
More importantly, I remember this post, and while I think it overstates things in stating that an LLM is just the dataset (it probably isn't now with o1), it does matter that LLMs are influenced by their data sources.
https://nonint.com/2023/06/10/the-it-in-ai-models-is-the-dataset/
For 2, the basic reason for this is that the strongest capabilities we have seen that come out of RL either require immense amounts of data on pretty narrow tasks, or non-instrumental world models.
This is because constraints prevent you from having to deal with the problem where you produce completely useless RL artifacts, and evolution got around this constraint by accepting far longer timelines and far more computation in FLOPs than the world economy can tolerate.
Assuming the goals are done over say 1-10 year timescales, or maybe even just 1 year timescales with no reward-shaping/giving feedback for intermediate rewards at all, I do think that the system won't work well enough to be relevant, since it requires way too much time training, and plausibly way too much compute depending on how sparse the feedback actually is.
Ah, I wasn't thinking "sparse" here meant anywhere near that sparse. I thought your dense-vs-sparse was doing something like contrasting RLHF (very dense, basically no instrumental convergence) with chess (very sparse, plenty of instrumental convergence).
I still think o1 is moving towards chess on this spectrum.
Oh, now I understand.
And AIs have already been superhuman at chess for very long, yet that domain gives very little incentive for very strong instrumental convergence.
I am claiming that for practical AIs, the results of training them in the real world with goals will give them instrumental convergence, but without further incentives, will not give them so much instrumental convergence that it leads to power-seeking to disempower humans by default.
Chess is like a bounded, mathematically described universe where all the instrumental convergence stays contained, and only accomplishes a very limited instrumentality in our universe (IE chess programs gain a limited sort of power here by being good playmates).
LLMs touch on the real world far more than that, such that MCTS-like skill at navigating "the LLM world" in contrast to chess sounds to me like it may create a concerning level of real-world-relevant instrumental convergence.
Thanks for this response! I agree with the argument. I'm not sure what it would take to ensure CoT faithfulness, but I agree that it is an important direction to try and take things; perhaps even the most promising direction for near-term frontier-lab safety research (given the incentives pushing those labs in o1-ish directions).
GPT4 does not engage in the sorts of naive misinterpretations which were discussed in the early days of AI safety. If you ask it for a plan to manufacture paperclips, it doesn't think the best plan would involve converting all the matter in the solar system into paperclips.
I'm somewhat surprised by this paragraph. I thought the MIRI position was that they did not in fact predict AIs behaving like this, and the behavior of GPT4 was not an update at all for them. See this comment by Eliezer. I mostly bought that MIRI in fact never worried about AIs going rouge based on naive misinterpretations, so I'm surprised to see Abram saying the opposite now.
Abram, did you disagree about this with others at MIRI, so the behavior of GPT4 was an update for you but not for them, or do you think they are misremembering/misconstructing their earlier thoughts on this matter, or is there a subtle distinction here that I'm missing?
1I more-or-less agree with Eliezer's comment (to the extent that I have the data necessary to evaluate his words, which is greater than most, but still, I didn't know him in 1996). I have a small beef with his bolded "MIRI is always in every instance" claim, because a universal like that is quite a strong claim, and I would be very unsurprised to find a single counterexample somewhere (particularly if we include every MIRI employee and everything they've ever said while employed at MIRI).
What I am trying to say is something looser and more gestalt. I do think what I am saying contains some disagreement with some spirit-of-MIRI, and possibly some specific others at MIRI, such that I could say I've updated on the modern progress of AI in a different way than they have.
For example, in my update, the modern progress of LLMs points towards the Paul side of some Eliezer-Paul debates. (I would have to think harder about how to spell out exactly which Eliezer-Paul debates.)
One thing I can say is that I myself often argued using "naive misinterpretation"-like cases such as the paperclip example. However, I was also very aware of the Eliezer-meme "the AI will understand what the humans mean, it just won't care". I would have predicted difficulty in building a system which correctly interprets and correctly cares about human requests to the extent that GPT4 does.
This does not mean that AI safety is easy, or that it is solved; only that it is easier than I anticipated at this particular level of capability.
Getting more specific to what I wrote in the post:
My claim is that modern LLMs are "doing roughly what they seem like they are doing" and "internalize human intuitive concepts". This does include some kind of claim that these systems are more-or-less ethical (they appear to be trying to be helpful and friendly, therefore they "roughly are").
The reason I don't think this contradicts with Eliezer's bolded claim ("Getting a shape into the AI's preferences is different from getting it into the AI's predictive model") is that I read Eliezer as talking about strongly superhuman AI with this claim. It is not too difficult to get something into the values of some basic reinforcement learning agent, to the extent that something like that has values worth speaking of. It gets increasingly difficult as the agent gets cleverer. At the level of intelligence of, say, GPT4, there is not a clear difference between getting the LLM to really care about something vs merely getting those values into its predictive model. It may be deceptive or honest; or, it could even be meaningless to classify it as deceptive or honest. This is less true of o1, since we can see it actively scheming to deceive.
It seems likely that process supervision was used for o1. I'd be curious to what extent it addresses the concerns here, if a supervision model assesses that each reasoning step is correct, relevant, and human-understandable. Even with process supervision, o1 might give a final answer that essentially ignores the process or uses some self-prompting. But process supervision also feels helpful, especially when the supervising model is more human-like, similar to pre-o1 models.
Process supervision would be helpful, particularly if the model is punished for sensitive dependence on paraphrasings of the CoT, or rewarded for producing CoT which is useful even after paraphrasing.
One of the concerns that I have is that (I believe) the LLM before the CoT-training will be sensitive to some non-human-readable patterns, similar to adversarial examples for image recognition. The CoT training will encourage any patterns which help reach the desired conclusions, whether those patterns are human-readable or not.
A lot of possible process-supervision procedures will not do anything to help prevent this. For example, rewarding CoT for being human-understandable won't help, because the reward signal there can miss the subtle patterns being used. It only avoids the outcome where the CoT looks non-human-readable; it doesn't avoid the outcome where the CoT actually contains a bunch of human-unreadable patterns.
Using paraphrasing to avoid this is heavily dependent on the strength of the paraphraser. The paraphraser needs to have really good coverage of alternative ways to convey the same semantic information, so that any non-human-readable patterns get randomized. The paraphraser itself can't be vulnerable to steering by adversarial inputs.
In some sense, the Agent Foundations program at MIRI sees the problem as: human values are currently an informal object. We can only get meaningful guarantees for formal systems. So, we need to work on formalizing concepts like human values. Only then will we be able to get formal safety guarantees.
unless i'm misunderstanding you or MIRI, that's not their primary concern at all:
Another way of putting this view is that nearly all of the effort should be going into solving the technical problem, "How would you get an AI system to do some very modest concrete action requiring extremely high levels of intelligence, such as building two strawberries that are completely identical at the cellular level, without causing anything weird or disruptive to happen?"
Where obviously it's important that the system not do anything severely unethical in the process of building its strawberries; but if your strawberry-building system requires its developers to have a full understanding of meta-ethics or value aggregation in order to be safe and effective, then you've made some kind of catastrophic design mistake and should start over with a different approach.
Good citation. Yeah, I should have flagged harder that my description there was a caricature and not what anyone said at any point. I still need to think more about how to revise the post to be less misleading in this respect.
One thing I can say is that the reason that quote flags that particular failure mode is because, according to the MIRI way of thinking about the problem, that is an easy failure mode to fall into.
Your making a mistake : "If you ask it for a plan to manufacture paperclips, it doesn't think the best plan would involve converting all the matter in the solar system into paperclips. If you ask for a plan to eliminate cancer, it doesn't think the extermination of all biological life would count as a success."
When you ask GPT for such things, you're not setting it's internal goal. You're just interracting with him. His internal goal might look like "Provide answer that are likely to satisfy the human , and write only potato if the human provide the exact string "s8r5d6s8rd4c8e" "
You have no idea what's exactly it internal goal, but you're just seeing that so far its providing satisfying answers.
Such misalligned internal goals can still bite us especially if the there are specific outliers not present in the training dataset
My point here is that at the capability level of GPT4, this distinction isn't very important. There's no way to know for sure until it is too late, of course, but it seems pretty plausible that GPT4 isn't cleverly scheming. It is merely human-level at deception, and doesn't pursue any coherent overarching goal with it. It clumsily muddles through with mildly-above-average-for-human convincingness. For most queries (it seems plausible to me) it isn't even adequately coherent to make a crisp distinction between whether it's honestly trying to answer the question vs deceptively trying to make an answer look good; at its level of capability, it's mostly the same thing one way or the other. The exceptions to this "mostly" aren't strategic enough that we expect them to route around obstacles cleverly.
It isn't much, but it is more than I naively expected.
Curated and popular this week